Hello and welcome to Higher Thinking on Higher Ed. I am Charlyn Carrington of Content Strong Communications, the fractional communications and marketing leader of choice for universities, colleges and nonprofits. Today I am excited to continue diving into the trends, the challenges encountered by communications and marketing leaders and leaders in general in higher ed. And I am honored to welcome Dr. Robert Hoffman to the hot seat today. Robert is the president and CEO of Yo San University, where he leads strategic growth while teaching in both master's and doctoral programs. You can correct me if I'm wrong after Robert. 03:38 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University No, you're totally right. 03:40 Sharlyn, Content Strong Good, good. A seasoned researcher, clinician, and former music producer, he bridges eastern medicine, integrative health, and creative innovation. He also serves on national accreditation boards and is pursuing research on Chinese herbs and cancer treatments. That is huge. Thank you again so much for bringing your expertise to this talk. 03:57 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. 03:59 Sharlyn, Content Strong Yes. I'm so happy to dive into this conversation with you. I think this is a little bit of a different lens. I'm always looking for the different lens and the different angle on kind of this conversation. What's happening in the current climate? And my first question is, typically, situate us a little bit. You're leading one of the few Chinese medicine institutions experiencing growth during a time of, you know, contraction, quite frankly. Can you share your vision for Yosan and you know, how your leadership is, I guess, positioning the institution for the future? 04:30 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Yeah. So I come. I come at this. I'm fairly new in the industry. I graduated with my master's degree in 2015 and my doctoral degree in 2018. So I'm, you know, seven years now into the journey of being an administrator. So a lot of my experience is coming from the music world is like, how do I be creative? How do I change things? What can I do to innovate? And the industry, as you mentioned, is really going through an incredible transformation. Up until 2014, we saw a very linear growth pattern across all schools and even across the industry. The acceptance of acupuncture, moving into institutional healthcare, things like that. But then from, like, 2014 up until Covid, things began to shift. 05:19 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University And I've looked at the data, and other schools and governing boards have looked at data, and we don't really have a good answer for it. But from. In that time period, we probably saw really like a 20 to 30% decline in students enrolled in Chinese medicine programs. So there was a lot of contraction in that time period. And then Covid hits. And while that further shrinks enrollment numbers, you have government programs, you have PPP loans, SBA loans, and that propped up a lot of these institutions for a moment. But then 22, 20, 22 hits, you know, and. And reality sets in. 05:59 Sharlyn, Content Strong Yeah. 05:59 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University And enrollment numbers don't come back. So it becomes a. You know, it becomes. It's all. Everything becomes about strategic growth, strategic planning, and are you able to, number one, kind of contain and retain the students that you've already got on campus? And how are you positioning yourself in the marketplace to try to attract new students? Students who've never considered Chinese medicine as a career and students in a competitive market like Los Angeles? We had six schools up until recently. One of them just closed. So across our entire industry in the last five years, we've seen six major institutions close, some of the oldest schools in the country. That's partially due to enrollment, but also, like, the entire dynamic of education has changed. I know. I've watched the other podcast, and everybody will tell you, like, the delivery of education has changed. 06:58 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University The content or how we speak about the content has totally changed. Both because of COVID the political climate, everything has radically shifted. And if you're doing what you did pre Covid today, you're probably struggling. You know, you're probably on a trajectory for failure. So I came in the end of 22. The board of trustees, who are founders, are part of the board of trustees. We're a small school, small family school, really nonprofit. And they decided we needed to make a transition. And I had been the dean of the doctoral program here. And through the course of those three years, they liked what I had to say. You know, they're like, oh, this. He's. He's got his pulse. He's got his hands. Fingers on the pulse. He's out in the community. He's out nationally working with the accreditation commission, with state boards. 07:51 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University So we Had a transition period and I became the CEO in April of 2023. Starting to lose track of the years. So it's just been just over two years and in that time we've doubled our enrollment, we just about doubled our clinic revenue, our on campus clinic. We're definitely in a pattern of growth, you know, through this transition. And that's. We were talking before we started the podcast. That's why I work seven days a week and don't sleep too much. But that's kind of what it's taken to get us back, you know, in this trajectory of growth. 08:30 Sharlyn, Content Strong I want to ask you so many questions about what you just said, and I'm going to ask you so many questions, but I want to ask you something slightly unrelated and you can feel free to not answer it. What made you move from the music industry? 08:43 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Oh, great question. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Great, great question. So I started as a paid musician or composer while I was still in college. I was doing, I was working in New York City for ad agencies, doing really, internships, you know, free work with the idea that if I got in, maybe I could write it, right? Could write a jingle or something like that. And that actually worked through my junior and senior year of college. And then I went in full time into the music industry. After college, I got a job in New York City at a recording studio. And that was. I had an amazing career. I worked with Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones, Janet Jackson, and the list is, you know, amazing. I went on to produce Christina Aguilera. 09:27 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University I helped her get her record deal, her debut record, and continue to work with her through the years. Yeah, it was a good, it was a really good run. But kind of early 2000s, 2004, I began to get like an itch, you know, music was getting, it wasn't fulfilling something, you know, in my life. And really there was a huge transition. I went to Sri Lanka to do tsunami relief with a bunch of friends and were digging wells and hanging electricity and doing all this kind of stuff. And that three week period, like I came home and I remember leaving the airport and my wife didn't even recognize me. Like, it was that transformational. And I knew, like, I need to do something in my life, in my career to help people, right? All the time, full time. That's what I want to do. 10:22 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University I want to help people. And on that trip, one of my friends, my martial arts teacher was with us and he wasn't, he is an acupuncturist right? And everywhere went, he was able to do acupressure and make teas for people. And even though we had no western medicine with us, he was able to help people right throughout that entire trip. And I said, that's what I want to do. I have a background in martial arts. This, this connects with me. So it took some time to, you know, unwind my life in the music industry. And I went back to school in 2010 and kind of haven't looked back. I still do a little bit of music here and there. I have a few clients and friends that I'll work with. But most of my life is now consumed with Chinese medicine, education and research. 11:05 Sharlyn, Content Strong Robin, what an incredible story. What an incredible story. There are so many things I pulled out of that. But I'm going to get back to our actual topic a little bit at hand. And you know, you talk just now about transformation. Like, if I were to pick one big theme out of what you've just said, a transformation in your life, but transformation in, you know, our current climate and transformation in just this idea of, you know, across the board, Chinese medicine schools and what that means for everyone. Clearly I feel like Yosan must have had some kind of transformation over the past few years that has helped you guys grow where other people are not growing. 11:41 Sharlyn, Content Strong What, what do you consider that thing, like if you had to put a name on it, a label on it and say it was because we did this, it's because we're doing this, that's able us to, you know, double your revenue and all the other things you just said, double your enrollment. 11:56 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Yeah, we listened. Yeah, we listened. We. When I started to put together our team and we had a huge shift of personnel. Right When I started to put together our team, the primary thing that I spoke to everybody about and the, the kind of, the driver in picking these team members was how well they listened. You know, we needed to become student driven and that's not an easy thing because every student body is so diverse, right? And they all want something different. So it can be schizophrenic sometimes. But my goal with our team, you know, I, I ask them all the time, you know, find a way to say yes. And if we can't, let's figure out how to soften, you know, that blow when somebody asks for something like is, don't just say no. 13:02 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Like there are other administrations in the world that, where every answer is no, you know, but I want to say yes. I want to say yes as often as possible. And my, I tease my students all the time, like, have you ever heard me say no? I'm like the worst father there is because I never say no. So, so listening was it, you know, but along that in building the team was making sure that I had a team that is inspired. 13:27 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 13:28 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University You know, they're not putting, they're not marking time here, they're not marking their calendar. They're not in the educational world because they couldn't make it somewhere else. They want to be here, they want to teach, they want to inspire people, they want to innovate. They realize that the medicine itself has only been legal in the US for 50 years. It's still a baby industry. So where can we innovate? It's way too young to get stuck. And then within that, making sure that I continue to provide a culture of innovation, right? That everybody has a growth mindset. Our founder once asked us, or, you know, in a meeting, basically said, like, I need you all rowing the boat in the same direction. 14:09 Sharlyn, Content Strong Yeah. 14:10 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University You know, that's not to say we can't have opposing ideas, but like, we have to know that our trajectory, we're all moving in that same direction. The boat's going the same direction, we're all rowing that same direction. And then within my team, I'm always looking for continued training. We bring in outside facilitators to train us in various topics. Everything, of course, you know, all the standard kind of ferpa, hipaa, osha, all that kind of stuff. But, but what else can we do? You know, distance education, the student portals, like all these kinds of things. We're constantly bringing in training to the staff and faculty to just continue to innovate. I never want to get stuck. 14:49 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 14:50 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University And that's from my music world, you know, that's. You can't. If you're stuck, like, you're not going to be successful. And then something I've mentioned in other interviews before is I got to work with Quincy when I was about 25 and it was hugely, you know, transformational for me then and still inspirational now. And Quincy once said, he said, make sure you're not the smartest person in. 15:15 Sharlyn, Content Strong The room, in the room. 15:16 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University You know, surround yourself with people more talented than you. And that's. That is absolutely my goal in every facet is like, I don't need somebody that's going to say yes to me. I need somebody that's going to say, have we thought of this? Have we done that? You know, so it's. It's all about team building. And as a music producer, that's all I did every day was build teams to create music. Who's the best guitar player, who's the best drummer, Who's. Who's, you know, who will fit this style of music better than anyone else? So I'm just applying that same model here. 15:45 Sharlyn, Content Strong I think that's such a very interesting and useful insight for just about everyone. I mean, of course, it comes from Quincy Jones. 15:55 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University It helps that it comes from Quincy. 15:56 Sharlyn, Content Strong Of course. You know, I think about all the things you just said in terms of transfer transformation and just this idea of listening exercise. And as a communicator, that's. People are always like, you do a lot of this. I'm like, actually, communications is the exact opposite of that. Like, it's about responding to the listening. So I'm completely on board with what you're saying. So you talked a little bit about, you know, what you're doing really well. And, you know, as a new CEO in a niche and transforming sector, that, I mean, that's really good to hear, and it's interesting to hear what those initiatives are that are proving most effective. What are you still encountering in terms of, like, friction and uncertainty? What. Where are your kind of big challenges right now? 16:40 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University This is. Will be an exercise in how not to stick my foot in my mouth. So, you know, I'm the new guy, right? I'm the new guy in our industry. I'm the new guy at the school itself. And even though the industry itself is only 50 years old, it's primarily driven by school owners, people that started the school actually as an entrepreneurial concept who are now the presidents at lots of these schools. So only about maybe 35% of our industry is nonprofit. The rest is for profit. So as the new guy, as one of the younger presidents, there's a lot. There's. There's definitely friction and pushback. You know, it's like, well, why would you want to do that? You know, there's definitely that kind of like, we're all doing this, and it. We're surviving, and it's kind of like, for now? 17:37 Sharlyn, Content Strong Yeah. 17:37 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Yeah, for now. So I definitely. I definitely encounter that. So I try to do. I do a lot of outreach. I'm in all these various councils and governing boards and all of these things to just kind of present ideas. And the way that I try to do that, I don't come in with a hammer, even though I'm from New Jersey and I can have A very large personality. I do try to go in and say like, look, this is the data right now. We can make a decision as a group, we can make a change as a group, but let's make sure we come at that from a data driven process. 18:14 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Not, I feel, I went, I think it's like let's look at data and then we can really make some changes based on that data as opposed to maybe what's best for our individual school or just based on our pure emotional drive to create change. Like let's have data. And I think that's for me, data is everything. 18:39 Sharlyn, Content Strong Well, I mean I was going to get to this question, maybe like two questions from now, but I'm going to ask it now because you bring it up. I mean, are there particular metrics, indicators that you are specifically tracking, like the impact of these changes that you're having and how are they kind of informing your decisions? 18:54 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Yeah, so I have, I can't show it to you because it would take up like a matrix. Screens, I have three screens in front of me, believe it or not, but I have, we have these performance dashboards that we monitor everything from in our clinic to patient numbers, new patient numbers, return patients, lost patients, what type of treatments they've gotten, obviously daily numbers, revenue, all those kinds of things where they heard about us. And then on the academic side, just for enrollment, of course, we're looking at our website stats, we're looking at impressions, page content and traffic click throughs and ultimately how those numbers move into actual applications. And then of course, everything we do in our marketing world, social media, print, email, whatever it is designed to drive people back into that funnel. 19:49 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 19:50 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University So when I came on board, were seeing something like, I want to say 600 or 500 impressions a month on our website, which is not good. Right now we're seeing something like 1.5 million impressions a month. 20:10 Sharlyn, Content Strong Oh, that's huge. 20:11 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Okay. Yes, it was a complete flip into that. We've got lots of content on there that's driving people who maybe aren't even interested in the education portion yet, but they're interested in acupuncture and Chinese medicine. So they're coming to the website for that information. Then we look at of course, conversion rates within education. You know, we look at our applications to registration and our goal is typically about 65%. We have rolling admission in January, May and September. So we're looking, we try to do. We, we target 65%, you know, industry standards, you know, anywhere from 20 to 50%. A little higher for graduate education, which is where we're at. But 65% is just about our target. And we're hitting those targets again because of this admissions team that we've been able to put together. 21:04 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University We have an incredible board of trustees that's actively engaged in our admissions and our enrollment and the educational process throughout. 21:13 Sharlyn, Content Strong Okay, so it's interesting that you mentioned the admissions team. I want to hear about that. How are you? And maybe that's all part of your entire strategy. A lot of schools I speak to have this conversation about how they are, how all of their different teams are intertwined to do one thing. So whatever's happening in communications and marketing, they're seeing an issue here, and it feeds back into their overall institutional strategy, whether that's, you know, academically and how they design their programs, and then how they tell the story at the end of that. And it goes full circle. I wonder if you have any, I don't know, insights to share about how you're kind of adopting your delivery models, your marketing, your enrollment, your advancement approaches, let's say, to remain kind of relevant and competitive in this new environment. 21:55 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Yeah, so again, prior to my stepping in, there wasn't much of a social media campaign. 22:00 Sharlyn, Content Strong Yeah, it was kind of. 22:02 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University And when it was, when there were posts, they were, you know, maybe just information about Chinese medicine or an event on campus. There wasn't like a targeted campaign. Now we've got someone that's leading the entire kind of marketing pyramid and is engaged in every aspect of admissions and enrollment, continuing education programs on campus, events, student driven events, leading that whole piece. And then we have a member of our board of trustees who's a former marketing kind of guru. So he meets with our team every Wednesday right after this call. Actually, we get together every single week and we talk about all of these pathways of engagement with the university and how they all relate with each other. And we're constantly doing simple things. 22:56 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Like we have a doctoral faculty member who's going to do a continuing education piece for alumni, who's also going to do a public program, who's also going to do a speaking engagement at a hospital. And all of those things are tied together. And the brand awareness, again, from the website impressions, we can see that brand awareness just kind of blossomed in a way that it just wasn't here before, but it required everybody's sitting down on a regular basis, engaging people who had the talent, of course, but making sure that really every single person has input into this process. Nobody's left behind. And that's also something that I learned from Quincy. Quincy said like, hey, you know what? The pizza delivery guy might have a good idea, Right? 23:42 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University So, like, if he drops the food off in the control room, what do you think of the mix, you know, is like. Like everybody has to be engaged in that process. You don't want them completely sidetracked from their primary tasks because every. Because it's a university, it's got to run, and everybody's got, you know, their. Their primary focus. But if you're marketing without input from admissions, exactly how. How are you. Or how are you hitting your target market? Do you even know what your target market is? Right. 24:10 Sharlyn, Content Strong Yeah. 24:11 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University And even. Even when I was recruiting the team, I wanted our team to be representative of the students that come to Chinese Medicine school. Right. There's. There's something about walking into an environment. Everyone says when they walk into our school, like, it feels. They. They feel like they're home. 24:32 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 24:32 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University And that. That was very intentional on my part. Our industries is anywhere from 70 to 80% female practitioners, female driven. Well, if you come to a school and the administration's all guys. 24:46 Sharlyn, Content Strong Exactly. 24:46 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Right. They may be talented. Right. But it doesn't represent the rest of the profession. 24:51 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 24:52 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University So I did that in terms of this entire recruitment process was like, what does our school look like? Who do we represent and what's our student. What's our potential student demographic, and who do they represent? And is there some kind of, you know, synthesis and synergy that needs to happen in this? 25:12 Sharlyn, Content Strong See themselves there. 25:14 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University They. They see themselves here. Right? It's so that, you know, on top of just, like, campus updates and I mean, went. I mean, it is. You said transformation earlier. It is. It's intense here. It's, you know, it's constantly ongoing to make sure that when you walk on this campus as a new student, you feel home. You feel like you could spend the next four years here. 25:36 Sharlyn, Content Strong Well, I think your numbers are clearly showing that you're doing something right. 25:40 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University I know. I joke. If I worked for Pepsi, I'd have a jet, right? I'd have my own plane. 25:44 Sharlyn, Content Strong It's coming. Manifest it. 25:46 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Manifest it. 25:47 Sharlyn, Content Strong Don't worry. Looking ahead to the next, I don't know, six to 12 months. What goals are you most focused on right now? Where are you putting kind of all your attention? Whether it's, I don't know, financial health or curricular transformation or student experience, like, you just mentioned something else. 26:05 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Yeah. So we've been able to, you know, were. We were one of those schools that was moving into, you know, the potential trajectory of closure, you know, coming out of COVID So we've now spent these last two years transforming and growing and building something that's sustainable. And now we're reaching that point where we can say we can kind of breathe a little. You know, we're not relaxing and resting on our laurels, but it's kind of like, okay, we're in a good place now. Now how do we expand this? We have a single campus building that all of our activities are housed in primarily, and that has a finite number of students just based on the physicality of the parking and things like that. So now as an institution, we need to decide if we want to grow. What does that look like? 26:58 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Is it satellite campuses? Is it partnering with other schools in different states? Is it creating consortium agreements? Is it looking to China and Southeast Asia and Europe for partner institutions? Like, where do we want to be? And I do use larger schools, regional schools, as kind of a model for that. Like, I'm really in love with Brown's EMBA program that has partnership with a school in Spain. Like, things like that. Like, what can we look. How can we look to those schools, those programs, and use them as a model and what will work for us and what won't. We just created a partnership with a university in Hangzhou, China, Zhejiang Chinese Medicine University. We created a dual doctoral program. The students will attend the didactic classes here and then they'll go to China to do research and do clinical rotations in the hospital there. 27:50 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University So building on programs like that to give students a broader experience, kind of semester abroad, but much more focused and much more detailed. That program's about a four year program on top of their four year master's degree. So those are the kind of things we're looking to build. 28:07 Sharlyn, Content Strong Oh, wow. I can imagine that would be pretty attractive for somebody coming in, actually getting to go and to be immersed in and what that means when they take. Take away that experience, what that will mean for their practice in general. 28:16 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Right, Yeah, I mean, that's what I did. That's what I did for myself is I looked to go to school in China back in 2010, but it was going to be about 12 years. And I was like, I don't want to go to leave the country for 12 years. 28:28 Sharlyn, Content Strong Yeah. 28:28 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University And reinvent myself. So I did my education in America, but then my PhD is with this school, Chinese Medicine University. And it was like, it was so, again, transformational. My. As soon as I, as soon as I got involved in the school here, I'm like, I need to give people that. I need to make sure that is accessible to them, because it was a hard road for me and very painful at times. And. But now that I understand what it looks like, I can help my students have that same experience and hopefully remove the roadblocks and the speed bumps so that it's an easier experience for them. 29:03 Sharlyn, Content Strong That's probably why you're, once again, why you're seeing such a change in enrollment, because you're. I feel like you're coming from it from a different perspective. You're not just an administrator. You were a student. And therefore you're responding to specifically to student needs and the kind of desires and things that they need to fulfill their, you know, their roundabout experience. Right. Their whole experience. 29:22 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University It's not a mystery to me because I've walked that path and I'm trying to blaze that path for you. 29:28 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 29:28 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University I would never ask somebody to do something that I haven't done. So I'm trying to break down all those barriers for them. 29:34 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. I have one last question, and my last question is always the magic wand question. If I hand you this pen and we're going to pretend it's a magic wand and you can wave it around right now and, you know, remove that one big thing or accelerate progress at Yo San in some way, what would that one big thing, one big boulder barrier be that you remove? And what impact do you imagine it having? 30:00 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University I would love. Can I give two answers? 30:03 Sharlyn, Content Strong Yeah, give two answers. 30:05 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University I would say from an institutional standpoint, like, to. To build our endowment to the point where we could offer more scholarships, I would love this education to become more affordable and more accessible for as many people as possible, that if I could turn that switch or flip that switch today, you know, and I could get a large, you know, funder or. Or donor to come in and say, you know, what's the dollar amount? 30:33 Sharlyn, Content Strong Yeah. 30:34 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University To make this education free. I would. And I would do it immediately. That. That's exactly. That's the biggest piece for me, is making sure that this remains affordable and accessible or becomes even more affordable and accessible. But from an industry standpoint, like, what I would love to see is more engagement and agreement across all of the schools across the country so that we could move into things that would propel the profession, national practice acts, agreement about educational standards, all the things I do battle for in these governing boards and committees and all of this. But, like, you know, again, magic wand, if we could somehow agree, you know, all in One moment and push this thing forward, because we're still, as an industry, very siloed. And everybody's, of course, in a contracting industry. Right. Everyone's hyper protective. Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah. Even they're just. 31:37 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University They. It's like, hey, how do I keep my thing going? And I don't care about the guy next door. But I come at it from like, you know, having lived in New York before I moved to la, it's like, you've been in a neighborhood that has a lot of great restaurants. If you were in Little Italy, you know, at a certain time period, it's like every restaurant's packed and they're coming out, you know, lines out door. And when one restaurant gets popular, the next one benefits because nobody can get in there. And it's like, I see the same thing with schools. Like, we're not. We're not competitive. I tell my team all the time, don't even pay attention. Right. Just be the best we can be. And so I would love for the industry to be more collaborative. 32:15 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University You know, in that sense, we're not out for ourselves. We're out for the health and growth of our industry. And we can only do that through collaboration. 32:25 Sharlyn, Content Strong I love that. Big insight. And I think, you know, I've had other conversations with other individuals across this sector at different schools and at different types of schools, like, you know, community colleges and, you know, smaller liberal arts universities and so on. And they are all saying this idea of creating the partnership with the other institution down the road, because at the end of the day, there is. Is a need to come together and create, like, a shift whereby you're one really uplifting the value of what you have to offer across the board. Like higher education. 33:00 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Absolutely. 33:00 Sharlyn, Content Strong Across the board, number one. 33:01 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Yeah. 33:02 Sharlyn, Content Strong And. And. And it becomes kind of like a. Almost like a national campaign of, like, needing to re. Change and reteach and reframe the perspective of what. What it means to pursue education in general. So, anyway, I appreciate a lot that you've said that. Is there anything else that comes to mind that you're like, Charlyn, I really wanted to talk about this one thing. You never asked me about it, and therefore I never said it. 33:24 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University No, I feel pretty good. This was a great conversation. It was really good. But. Yeah, good. 33:30 Sharlyn, Content Strong It was. I really appreciate it. I appreciate your time and your experience. 33:33 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Thank you. Thank you. Do you have any. Do you have any other lingering questions? 33:36 Sharlyn, Content Strong No, I don't think so. I think it was a. I think it was a really robust conversation. I mean, it's the biggest theme, once again, is transformation. And I think we'll, you know, I think everyone will see that and take a lot of that insights or those insights away and ideally internalize that and find a way to use it in kind of in their own work. So to our listeners and to our watchers, I hope this episode did spark those kind of ideas for you or did kind of affirm your own experiences or help you see, you know, a challenge in a new light. If you are in higher ed, you're a leader. 34:08 Sharlyn, Content Strong You can be in communications or advancement or enrollment or marketing, whatever it is, and you want to have a conversation about what's going on in your world in the current climate, I'd love to hear from you. The truth is these conversations are not just talk. They're a start of a shared roadmap for the future of our field. So let's get to work. Thank you so much again, Robert. 34:25 Robert Hoffman, Yo San University Thank you. So great to talk with you and to be here this morning.