Hello and welcome to Higher Thinking on Higher Ed. I am Sharlyn Carrington of Content Strong Communications, the fractional communications and marketing leader of choice for universities, colleges and nonprofits. And today, I am in a very strange place. So everyone who's watching this and have watched these episodes are. But just for today, I am excited to continue diving into the trends and the challenges encountered by leaders in higher education. And I am so honored to welcome Dr. Brian Grigsby to the hot seat today. Brian is the 16th president of Moravian University, where he's led a decade of innovation in digital learning, affordability, institutional growth. A Moravian alum himself and Medieval Literature scholar. You'll have to tell me about that afterwards. He's championed major tech and capital investments while securing a World Heritage designation for the university. 06:54 Sharlyn, Content Strong So thank you so much again for bringing your expertise to this conversation today. How are you doing? 06:59 Bryon Grigsby I'm good. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with you. 07:03 Sharlyn, Content Strong So you have led. The first question I usually ask people is really just to kind of situate us a little bit, tell us a little bit about kind of your role. So, I mean, you've led Moravia now through kind of a significant period of transformation. I think we're all in a significant period of transformation, in truth. But can you tell us a little bit more about your role and how it kind of connects to the university's broader Ms. Evolution? 07:27 Bryon Grigsby Yeah. So Moravian's essentially about inclusion, and were the first school to start educating women in the colonies back in 1742. So we're the sixth oldest college by our founding date, and the other five in front of us are all four noble boys. And the Moravians, when they arrived in Pennsylvania, felt like the only way you'd have an educated society is if you started educating the women first, not the men, because the women are the first educators of the children. And so that was really revolutionary. And then they started educating the Lenape and the Native Americans. One of the amazing pieces about that is that they educated the Lenape in their own language. They learned Lenape and didn't force them to learn the language that they spoke, so they preserved their culture, their language. And so the institution was really about inclusion. 08:41 Bryon Grigsby And it sort of. To get to the mission part. When I came to Moravian, we talked a lot that weren't going to be classified as a top 100 liberal arts college anymore. We were going to be classified as a master's comprehensive and get back to our roots of serving everyone. And, you know, the liberal arts tends to be about exclusion. Teach this subject because that's professional. We won't teach that subject because that's not a liberal art. And I don't think that was the founding of the Moravians where education should be concerning itself with that which concerns society. So society needs nurses, society needs teachers, as well as English literature people and other individuals. So the Master's comprehensive university was really our focal point for the last 13 years. 09:44 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right, right. I Love some of the history you gave there because I think it paints a really interesting and good historical picture of kind of the foundation for Moravian as being more than just inclusion to me. Progressive, right? Really progressive thinking. Progressive thinking in terms of, you know, we're teaching our teachers this language so that they can deliver education in a language that is, you known and understandable to a specific group. And I think that is. So, I don't want to say it's unique, but it is particularly important. 10:16 Sharlyn, Content Strong I think at a time right now, if I think about, you know, what kind of, certainly the conversations I've had across the board and certainly what we're seeing everywhere in terms of the current climate from your perspective and as a president, you know, what are some of the biggest shifts you've seen lately in the higher ed landscape, specifically as it relates to, you know, kind of what's going on around us and how it's impacting your work and your day to. 10:42 Bryon Grigsby Well, I think the biggest question is value, right? What is the value of higher ed right now? And unfortunately, the Ivies and the elite universities, the broad brushstroke gets us all painted with whatever they say and the value is being questioned. It's interesting that state universities, their value is not being questioned in the same context that the elites are, right? So I think we are having to shift to a more vocational workforce development. I think the biggest shift that's happening to us right now is what does student learning look like in the age of AI for the last century, we educators, us, have chosen that the artifact of student Learning is the 8 to 10 page term paper, right? We, we only know what we know if we can communicate it to someone else, right? 11:50 Bryon Grigsby And we've used the term paper as that way of knowing and AI blows that up. But that hasn't always been the way of knowing. Of colleges before in the Roman period, you had to do orations. They. That was how you knew something. In the Middle Ages, you had to do recitations and memorizations and that's the way you knew something. There's been times in the early colonies that you had to learn debating as a way of knowing something. So AI is blowing up our artifact that we used to know, but we need to replace it with another artifact that uses AI but also demonstrates that the student can know and do something. 12:37 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right? 12:39 Bryon Grigsby And I think that's a challenge. We are in a revolutionary moment and it's liminal. We don't like liminal periods where we, where the Normal structures are out of line. We'll come through this. Universities are incredibly resilient. We'll figure out what learning artifacts mean for students using AI and it will be fine. It's just be painful getting through that liminal period. 13:08 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. I think that's such an. I mean, you've touched on several different points there that I want to pick up on. I mean one, the big piece of course is what does learning mean in the. In the face of AI? What is teaching mean in the face of AI? And how do you really demonstrate that someone understands what they need to know? And I think, you know, when we have these AI systems that almost doing the thinking for us, we have to be able to demonstrate that we can think when we're in a situation when we don't have, you know, those at our fingertips and those things. I wonder, you know, from your perspective what almost what. How you see your university or your institution getting through that. If you guys have identified any new strategies, let's say to. 13:48 Sharlyn, Content Strong In terms of your teaching and how you roll that out. 13:51 Bryon Grigsby Well, I'm in the midst of it right now because I'm teaching my. I teach a pandemic class in the. And I decided to go with our curriculum designers who created new AI chat bots for curriculum development and it blew my mind. Everything has been transformed and changed. You know, I've. In my career, I've lived through lots of this will be the end of the universities. You know this. Not that I live back when radio was created, but that was a statement about radio, is a statement about TV. Then it was learning and now in MOOCs, this one is going to change a lot. However, the universities are still going to figure out a way to survive and thrive in is. I think it's going to change the cost structure in a significant way. 15:00 Bryon Grigsby I don't think we are going to need as many staff members and possibly not as many faculty members. The big change in cost analysis for colleges and universities is when I went to Moravian in 1990 and I handed in a term paper to a professor. They could grade as many term papers as they can today. Like there's not been any significant increase in capacity of a faculty member. 15:32 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 15:33 Bryon Grigsby AI has the potential to make capacity for faculty members more significant and so they can handle more students, more learning artifacts, other ways of teaching. They may be able to handle more sections than we've had before. This could all drive down costs for our students, which is a good thing. Right. If we can deliver as good or better education at A lower cost with the capacity we currently have, then that's a benefit for our students. Our students graduate with less debt, our students go on for more meaningful lives, etc. Etc. So these, you know, I'm redesigning my course and the next thing is how do I explore grading. 16:23 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 16:25 Bryon Grigsby And different ways of. We're also stripping down and doing some stuff with helping working adults to be able to degree complete at a less costly way than we have previously. So all those things are going to be changes. I think faculty don't like to hear this, but I compare what's going to happen to colleges as what happened to the airline industry. There are people that pay for first in business class because they want an experience that they think that is, has a value too. 17:02 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 17:03 Bryon Grigsby We're going to have students and parents who want to pay for a residential college experience with sports and clubs and all activities. And then there's others that we fly and coach. 17:16 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 17:17 Bryon Grigsby And we all arrive at the same destination. So these are different experiences that, and our society needs these different experiences. We cannot just ignore the 40 million adults who don't have the job skills and the education skills simply because they're older than 18. 17:37 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right, right. I think you touched on so many things there. And I get back to the value point that you brought up earlier. This idea that, you know, everyone is questioning the value of higher education, but specifically when we think about the Ivies and really those bigger ticket, high, you know, high ticket education experiences, I tie that into what you just said about creating kind of three different streams of experience based on, you know, someone's ability to pay for it, essentially. I wonder what that means or if you even have any thoughts on what that means for a school like Moravian or school like, you know, one of the Big Ivies, if they're able to create, let's say kind of a three level system, cost structure system. 18:21 Sharlyn, Content Strong And if you think that's, you know, an interesting or a new strategy that anyone could kind of take to fix that problem or address that problem of value. 18:30 Bryon Grigsby Yeah, I, I think that I, I don't think the Ivys will do it because I don't think they have to. And I don't think the elites will do it because I don't think they have to. 18:42 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 18:43 Bryon Grigsby But I do think a place like Moravian, which was founded on access. 18:47 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right, good. 18:49 Bryon Grigsby And there's many schools like us that were founded for a, you know, a different mission where how can we not exclude people, but how can we include more people and better our society for it? That's been the mission since, you know, Moravians. The father of the Moravian education system is Kamenius, who's considered the father of modern education. And that was about educating every single human being. So, yeah, I guess, you know, some people could argue, I just, some people will argue that, well, one model is better than the other. And I, I disagree. 19:39 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 19:40 Bryon Grigsby I think difference, not deficient difference, just different. 19:44 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 19:44 Bryon Grigsby And there's reasons why people are in the different line. And it may because of life experience, it may because of what they can afford, but we should be able to bring them to the same destination, right? 20:00 Sharlyn, Content Strong Absolutely. Shifting gears just slightly, I want to think about kind of what you're doing right now. You know, what initiatives are you especially proud of right now? Where on the flip side, have you encountered some friction or frustration in advancing your goals? 20:16 Bryon Grigsby Yeah, so I, I, I kind of have two divergent things one hand. One of the things I'm really proud of is a bricks and mortar building that we're building right now. 20:25 Sharlyn, Content Strong Good, good. 20:26 Bryon Grigsby You know, people. So we just, we're completing a $45 million new students union built around student wellness. It's going to be only the second building in Pennsylvania that has a wellness certification. The Wharton School of Business is the other one. And so even the building, it's like Leeds certification, but it's for building wellness. And so the building is actually a metaphor of student wellness. The, the first level of the floor, the foundation, is mental health and physical health because you can't be ready for college unless you're mentally and physically well. So that's the foundation of the building. Then you move up to the next floor, which is Nutrition, food, our values of the alumni affairs, Career services, Inclusive excellence, all those programs are on that floor. 21:29 Bryon Grigsby You move up to the next floor and you get into specialized lounges, the veterans lounge, the commuter lounge. There's a decompression area where you can meditate and do yoga classes. There's even a religious area where you can pray. And there's student life offices to deal with any issues that you have. And then you move up to the third floor, which is a convention center and boardroom. So the building actually is a metaphor of student life in itself. So that's one thing I'm really proud of, that we're just completing. And then on the flip side, we are massively involved in helping our faculty learn how to do generative AI for their classes, for their classrooms. We've deployed AI Bots. We're deploying a complete AI suite for every student when they come onto campus in the fall. 22:31 Bryon Grigsby So they'll have access to all the AI like ChatGPT and Gemini and all those in a controlled environment where faculty can watch what they're doing. So that faculty are helping learn, helping to teach them how to use this technology efficiently and ethically. And then we're deploying all sorts of online courses, synchronous and asynchronous course is using AI for certificates in adult degree completion. 23:07 Sharlyn, Content Strong I mean those are really great examples. I love to hear more at some point about, you know, the storytelling factor of how you're able to now with this new building. In particular, how you're able to really talk about, look at the experience, the full holistic experience you were delivering to students when they come here through something like this building and all the different foundational levels of, you know, their learning experience and the kind of person they'll be when they leave. I'd love to hear that at some point. But what's challenging for you guys right now? It sounds like you're doing, you know, really wonderfully in terms of AI and how you're leveraging that as a tool. 23:40 Bryon Grigsby The challenges are, you know, faculty who just ban it, you know. 23:47 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 23:48 Bryon Grigsby Like which I've, I'm a medievalist. I'm at. Some would, some who don't know medievalists that well would say I'm the devil incarnate because I, I have the liberal arts degree and you know, you can't get more esoteric than kind of medieval studies. But medievalists are always, have always been very cutting edge because we've always had to defend why study a period that's so far removed. 24:15 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 24:16 Bryon Grigsby Value does it have. And we're constantly demonstrating the value. And medieval studies has always been multi visual because there's marginalia, there's graffiti of the Middle Ages. It's not just dual. So I think that's our big, you know, for me that's our biggest challenge is the faculty who want to ignore that AI exists. And, and I think you can do that. Not in colleges, I think, you know, high schools may want to choose to do that. I don't think that's a wise move. But we're preparing students for the world that they're going to go into. And the world is going to have AI use it. 25:02 Sharlyn, Content Strong Yeah, the world is using it. Absolutely. 25:06 Bryon Grigsby We provide, as part of our equity piece, we provide a MacBook and iPad, a pencil and an Apple Watch. To every student. And now we're providing access to AI to every student as part of their tuition coming in. So everything is, it's to level the playing field so that no one student has an advantage another student doesn't have in technology. 25:40 Sharlyn, Content Strong I love that. I love hearing that. I just think it's such an advantage. I mean, you know, most universities and institutions across the board should be thinking about how to prepare their student for the future of work and what the future of work looks like when we don't know what it will look like in the next five minutes, let alone five years. Right. So I really think it's a valuable exercise to think about. You know, we're giving you the tool, we're giving you the, not only the tools to use right now, but the thinking that goes along with how to use the tools that you could apply to something that we don't know, you know, will exist in the future. Right, right. 26:14 Bryon Grigsby And go back to that one idea. You know, I, I think it's interesting to think about. AI doesn't think is just bringing human information to you fast, much faster. And we've got, we've gone through this experience before. I mean, we remember card catalogs and our faculty telling you that, you know, you had to wander the stacks and you had to spend 50% of your time researching and 50% of the time composing. And then suddenly researching got a lot faster with computers. Right. And the, and the difference changed on how much you had to research, how much you had to. You spent more time composing than you spent actually necessarily having to find the books and the sources. Now it's, it's incredibly fast. Right. Everything is brought to me. 27:08 Bryon Grigsby And so, you know, they, they say that the misnomer is it shouldn't be artificial intelligence, it should be augmented intelligence. 27:18 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 27:19 Bryon Grigsby Because it's really just a library of human knowledge that's being brought to you with some warts and other things in it. And you have to be a critical thinker to be able to navigate it. Doesn't make sense, right? 27:32 Sharlyn, Content Strong Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a piece that most people, not most people, but some people are missing, and some people are really using it as, you know, the foundation for everything that they do without that extra step, without that critical thinking to analyze and think about. Is this the, is this the correct answer? Is this the answer that I was actually looking for? And how does this align with my strategy? Right. So I think about some of the Things that you're doing. I mean, you talked about, you know, really embedding AI and you know, your programming and as well and building up the student experience that way. But I think about, you know, over and then of course, the creation of your new building, which is great. 28:07 Sharlyn, Content Strong When you're looking at all of the things that you're doing right now, what type of data are you looking at? What type of indicators are you know, finding the most meaningful in terms of really showing you that you're reaching your goals or that you're hitting those outcomes that you're trying to reach. And whether that's, you know, enrollment or whether that's reputation, whether that's, I don't know, digital innovation, whatever it is. What metrics are you looking at right now? 28:29 Bryon Grigsby Our. We're the. By one standard survey. We were the fifth fastest growing institution in the nation. So over the last decade, that's our biggest indicator is that we have something that valuable that students want and they're getting jobs after that. We are also seeing good retention. I think where we're in the 81 to 82, 83 range for our first year retention, which is really, I don't think we're going to move for the kind of place we are that wants to be open access to a majority of students. We want to. I know you're in Canada. We want to be kind of the universities that are in Canada that if we're valued, we expand. 29:30 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 29:30 Bryon Grigsby We provide more resources for people, not less. And so those are the indicators. I love we. For us, we finally broke 4,000 applications, which was a big deal for us. When I started, were about 700 applications, which was the plan, which made no sense to me. 29:55 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 29:57 Bryon Grigsby The funny part is were at like 3999 for like a week. And my VP of admission said I'm almost tempted just to put one application just to get to 4000. And then the next week were at like 4500. 30:13 Sharlyn, Content Strong Big celebration. 30:15 Bryon Grigsby Yeah. So, so those are metrics we look at. We, we're putting a lot of. We have an AI bot coming in for student life that's going to be monitoring student health and wellness and questions that students have. So we're excited about that data that's going to be entering. We have a really robust help center, early warning center, but it's not using AI, it's using human capital. 30:49 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 30:49 Bryon Grigsby And I'd like to see what I. How that implemented. 30:55 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 30:55 Bryon Grigsby Yeah. 30:56 Sharlyn, Content Strong I think that those are some huge Metrics to be following and some huge wins. I mean, you just spoke up right there. What do you think? And this is not a question that I had on my list at all, but, you know, what do you think is responsible for that? Would you say it's, you know, because you're, I don't know, really thinking about the student experience or changing the way that you roll out programs or just because you're always, you know, staying with that foundation of trying to be accessible to students that you've been able to experience growth. Certainly when we're hearing across the board that there is this huge enrollment cliff and everyone's, nobody's, signing up anymore, nobody's, nobody could pay for it and nobody sees the value. You are seeing that kind of, that growth. 31:33 Bryon Grigsby Well, to be flippant, I would say it was my, you know, we're the Greyhounds and I got two live mascots and they drove enrollment more particularly the one mascot, the official one, was a huge enrollment driver. I think it's relevance at the end of the day, I think it's relevance and people are willing to pay for value. 31:59 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right? 32:00 Bryon Grigsby We, we do get more money on net tuition because we're providing more. We're providing laptops, we're providing access to AI, we're providing, you know, we provide assistant coaches, so full time coaches and assistant coaches. We provide a whole counseling suite and health center. We have not been cutting back on student services. We've actually been increasing. Every student gets a career counselor that starts with them on the first day they walk into the school and that they have to meet with them in addition to their advisor to talk about how they're preparing their CVs or the resumes, how they're, when they're going to take. We provide every student with a global trip for a 10 or 14 days international trip. So these are all costs that, yes, we're not the cheapest, but we're providing a lot of value. 32:57 Bryon Grigsby And I look at Apple, you know, it does the same model. You can buy a cheaper phone, but do you want to buy the one that has the greatest quality and the greatest value for yourself? And so I think those things are the pieces that are driving our enrollment. Parents are willing to pay for things that at the end of the day are going to impact the future of their children's lives. 33:24 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right? That's excellent. I, I know you spoke a little bit about some of the goals, like some of the new AI tools that you're trying to embed into your systems, into your strategies. Is there anything else you're looking towards for the next six to 12 months that you really kind of have your eye on and you're really hoping that you know, you get to do so? 33:43 Bryon Grigsby Assessment right now is the number one thing. Assessment of these AI tools board and everybody else. We're signing one year contracts because I, I have no idea what it's going to be like next year. And so we have to choose something. You know, if you, I go to ASU GSV conference every year and there's, you know, six vendors doing the same thing and you got, you're gonna have to pick one and you're gonna have to assess whether it's working for you or not. And you're gonna have to change horses pretty quickly because in this market people can have a startup in a couple months, it can be bought out in a couple more months and then there's a new product that's even better in a couple more months after that. So the advantage is none of these things are hugely expensive. 34:42 Bryon Grigsby You're talking 20 to $40,000 in general for an AI bot that does some aspect. We have one for admissions right now that we've been using for about six months. We have one in student life and academics and we have one in development and advancement. So for me it's assessing how they're going to be used. I should add the one that does the chat GPT and the AI for the students. 35:16 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 35:17 Bryon Grigsby But we're going to be spending this year in assessment. Is this the right product? Do we need to switch to another product? Is there something better out there? So that's on the next six month horizon is just assessment of everything we decided. 35:34 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. I think that's a, that's, I mean, I think everyone needs to be doing a little bit of that now. And I think it's what's interesting about that exercise is not just employing the tools and using the tools, but finding the right people to engage, to find out how well the tools are working. So I mean, that's like you're talking to faculty, you're talking to staff, you're talking to students to see what their experience is and what the value is of, you know, them being able to have access to all of these tools. 35:59 Bryon Grigsby And we have to be willing to fail to be willing. I talk to my board about this all the time. If you want to be entrepreneurial, you have to be accepting that some things aren't going to work and we're going to have to go left or right from that position. And we have to be comfortable with that as educators. We learn more from our failures than we learn from our successes. So the advantage, like I said before, is failure is pretty low cost right now. You know, it's not like you did a 10 million dollar ERP switch and you failed. 36:37 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right, right. I think that's a huge benefit and a huge point that you mentioned there because I think generally in the higher ed sector, there is that fair, that fear of failure. Right there is. Everyone feels like there's so much on the line right now, but as you rightfully mentioned, the costs are so low that if you fail, you know, you try something else, you adapt, you learn from those failures and you move to something that's a little bit better. My final question for you is, you know, the magic wand question. I ask everyone this question. Some people are like, I don't know how to answer. And some people love, you know, love it and have a really great idea. 37:10 Sharlyn, Content Strong So if I give you a magic wand right now, pretend my pen is that magic wand and you can take it and you can wave it around and you can remove that one big barrier, that one big challenge that's in your way, what would that big barrier be that you would remove and what would that mean for your team, your ecosystem? 37:26 Bryon Grigsby Fear. If I could remove fear, it represents, it results in a variety of different ways. Fear of self, fear of being known, shown as the fool. We all know deep in our hearts we are and we're protecting that image. Fear that the university is going to end and it may end as the way we know it, but it's been resilient since the 12th century. It probably will be resilient again. It's very good at adapting, even if it moves very slowly. I just think if I could replace fear with trust and that will, you know, go into this open mind, open eyes, clear eyes, open heart. 38:14 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 38:16 Bryon Grigsby And just keep the focus that we're trying to do the best we can for our students and get away. All the other fears that manifest themselves in different ways, they never manifest themselves as I'm really afraid. 38:34 Sharlyn, Content Strong Yes, so true, so true. People can never identify that the fear is the actual barrier. 38:41 Bryon Grigsby Right, right. And, and you know, we can try and we can fail and it's okay, we'll pick up the pieces and we'll try again. So that would be my magic wand. 38:53 Sharlyn, Content Strong That's a, that's an inspirational message you're leaving us all on. I think, Brian, that's the big, that's a big core inspirational message that ideally everyone will take away from this episode. Is there anything else that comes to mind that I just didn't ask you about, you didn't get a chance to talk about, but you were really hoping to mention? 39:11 Bryon Grigsby No, I think I, I think this is a great time to be educational leaders. I actually think it's a great time for the humanities too. 39:18 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 39:18 Bryon Grigsby I think you're going to see the humanities come back because where else do we pull in a variety of texts and show which ones are real, which ones are lying, which ones are shading the truth? Digital humanities, I think is going to just explode. And we, you know, we're a UNESCO World Heritage site and we're focused heavily on, on digital humanities and seeing growth in that. But it's going to be something different than the English degree I took right. In 1990. And it should be, this is good that it's evolving and it's changing. But I think digital humanities across universities because I know not everybody can be UNESCO World Heritage Site. I hear this all the time. But every place has museums and historical locations that are campuses historical location. 40:22 Bryon Grigsby You can use digital humanities for that and recreate things in using AI and going into archives and stuff like that, even though you're not a World Heritage. 40:34 Sharlyn, Content Strong Site, I think you've touched on a very important point or very important opportunity across the board is this idea that because we're moving so close with as closely aligned with technology and becoming even more reliant on technology like AI, there is this whole opportunity over here to really explore what it means to find truth, what is truth, and just really seeing how our humanity aligns with this idea of intelligence that is artificial. Artificial intelligence. 41:03 Bryon Grigsby Right. I love the statement that's kind of come out. I think it was MIT that people can identify things that are AI created because it's lacking a soul. 41:17 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 41:17 Bryon Grigsby And, and I think that's what the human component is. And if you do get, if you're using AI effectively, you're rewriting what it's writing to put the soul in it. And, and I, I do think that's going to be the benefit to the humanities in the long run because that is truly what it means to be human. Right. It's the study of what it means to be human. And you can bring this human knowledge, but to make it your own, you have to put your soul into it. 41:53 Sharlyn, Content Strong That's the sound bite, Brian. That's it. That's it. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your experience, your perspective. It's been a hugely generous and thoughtful conversation to our listeners, to our watchers. Thank you so much for sharing this moment with us. I hope you see, you know, affirmed your own experiences or maybe see a challenge in a new light. If you're a communications or marketing leader, or any leader in hiring, you're a president. What if you're in finance, whatever, and you have something to contribute to this conversation, I'd love to hear from you. Because these conversations are more than just talk. Right. They are ideally a guiding light, a shared roadmap to the future of our field. So let's get to work. Thank you so much again, Brian. 42:35 Bryon Grigsby Thank you. It was a pleasure.