Hello and welcome to Higher Thinking on Higher Ed. I am Charlin Carrington of Content Strong Communications, the fractional communications and marketing leader of choice for universities, colleges and nonprofits. Today I am excited to continue diving into the trends and challenges encountered by communications and marketing leaders and leaders in general in higher ed. And I am honored to welcome Dr. Catherine Wellborn to the Wellberg. See, said it wrong. To the hot seat today. Katherine is the president of Athens State University, bringing decades of leadership experience in academic innovation and student centered learning. A recognized high advocate for quality assessment and institutional effectiveness, Katherine has served in senior roles across multiple universities, driving change at the intersection of teaching, strategy and equity. Thank you so much today for bringing your expertise to this conversation. How are you? 01:11 Catherine Wehlburg Oh, thank you. I'm, I'm excited about what we're going to talk about. 01:15 Sharlyn, Content Strong Oh, good. I love to hear that. I love when people are super excited as I am. High energy, as you know. So I mean, I talked a little bit about your background, but I like to always kind of start off with the first question is giving us just a little bit of context on your role. I mean, you lead kind of a uniquely structured institution that serves adult learners and transfer students. Let me know if I'm wrong. How has that mission and your presidency, of course, kind of challenged or redefined, let's say, your understanding of what higher ed should be today. 01:47 Catherine Wehlburg And I think that is such a great kind of framing of where we are here athens State. So some of you may not know, but Athens State University is in Athens, Alabama, which is in the northern part of the state of Alabama, very close to Huntsville, Alabama, which is kind of a growing, continuing to grow area focusing on space and rocket science and is bringing in some amazing industry and some wonderful corporate entities that is really kind of redefining how north Alabama is growing. And Athens State University was established in 1822. So we've been around for over 200 years as an institution and we have had many, many changes in that 200 years, as you can imagine. 02:45 Catherine Wehlburg And our most recent change happened in 2012 when we became public regional institution that is part of the 14 public institutions in four year institutions in the state of Alabama. And we are an upper division institution and so we don't have freshmen or sophomores. We bring in transfer students at the undergraduate level. We work very closely with our community college partners. And we have a growing population of adult learners who are coming back who may have had some college but no credential, or who may have been in jobs with a degree that is not no longer meeting their needs. And so they are coming back to get a different degree and kind of rethink what their future might be. 03:37 Catherine Wehlburg And then we also have several master's programs that are very focused on industry needs in our areas and that kind of idea of advanced workforce. And so Athens State University as a four year public institution that focuses on that upper division student and master's level students, gives us a very different view on how higher education is really changing because our focus is more on that adult learner than the traditional. And I'm using air quotes around traditional student who is 18 to 22 years old. 04:20 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right, right. Okay. That, that is a per, that is actually the perfect framing for kind of everything. Because my next question of course is, you know, what are the big kind of shifts you're seeing in the industry now? I mean, you've seen the headlines, their closures, their cuts, there's political pressures. I think in an earlier conversation, however, you mentioned, you know, there are signs of hope and I think about your specific institution. What shifts are you most focused on right now and are maybe influencing you and how your, your model kind of focused or evolving? 04:53 Catherine Wehlburg Well, and you know, and as I look at public perception of higher education, public perception of the funding of higher education and how that is changing. 05:02 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. 05:03 Catherine Wehlburg You know, the, the idea that I grew up with and certainly have lived most of my professional life is that a college degree is a good thing and you should get one. And, and we are, we are moving past that where that is no longer sufficient. We need to be higher education as a, as a system needs to be able to explain and show why getting a college degree or a credential of some kind is useful. Not just that it's a good idea because it brings with it problem solving skills and all the things that we get with a robust general education program. But it also, we have to link it to workforce and especially with our population linking it to workforce. 05:57 Catherine Wehlburg Here is high demand jobs and fields and we are going to help you prepare for that high demand field, but not just that high demand field because we know that they're changing very quickly and we're sending students out into fields that in five years are going to look incredibly different. And we need to be able to prepare students for that change, which is why what we do is education and not training. And I make a distinction between those two. Even though certainly there are skills that are learned at the bachelor's and master's level, but we are really focused on educating students for that next chapter of their life, which is going to be in the workforce in some way at least. 06:50 Sharlyn, Content Strong I love that. I didn't mean to cut you. I love really spelling out that distinction between training for something and education. And in my mind, and maybe you can explain that even further. In my mind, the way I see it is education really is that broader ability to take some kind of information and expand on it and apply. Apply it in a different way. It's about kind of the broader critical thinking, let's say. How do you define the difference between education and training? 07:15 Catherine Wehlburg So often with training, it is learning a set skill or set of skills that are done in a way, in a particular way, and that when you are able to do that, you can go out and do that same thing in the world. And that is still very important. But when we talk about education, that is where you are certainly learning some of those skills, but you're also learning them in a theoretical construct. You are comparing and contrasting. You're doing those kinds of things so that you are prepared when you go out, when those skills need to change or get updated or sometimes get tossed completely because something new is there, that you have the, the capacity to be able to bring all that in and do that together. 08:12 Catherine Wehlburg And, and I think that's something that differentiates a higher education credential from a training program that, that you might choose to go through. And certainly we know there are companies who offer training programs in their company and they pay, you know, when you go through that, they pay very well. And that can be a great pathway. And we are not, I don't believe that we are competing with them. I know sometimes in some ways we are, in that we both kind of want the same students. But I really don't see that we are competing with them because what we offer is different, not necessarily better. I mean, I think it's better, honestly. But, but it's, but it doesn't necessarily get that student. 09:07 Catherine Wehlburg You know, you may go through a training at an Amazon or a JetBlue or, you know, whatever, and you may be able to get a wonderful, well, paying job that maybe even be paying more than you might get at an entry level bachelor's position. But when you think about long term, what happens in five years, what happens in 10 years? Where are you. I think that's where the education credit, the higher credential, it will really shine even more so. And as a, as a sector, higher education needs to be able to tell that story and not just assume that everybody understands it. And I think that's part of the problem that we've been seeing with public perception of higher education is it is. It is certainly very expensive. And if you compare it to a training program, it is very expensive. 09:59 Catherine Wehlburg And what's the value on that? And we have not really been able to fully share what that value is with those who may not see the value already. 10:10 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. It is hugely. I come to it from a communications lens, I guess, and I really do see it as a storytelling challenge. Right. Is being able to link that back directly to. This is what you get. This is how it benefits you. That really explaining kind of that value proposition and telling that story differently than I think it has been told in the past. Certainly something, you know, were. We're all kind of seeing, as I continue to have these conversations with different institutions as well. And I think about what you just said, I mean, you talked a little bit about some of the shifts that we're seeing in the sector in general. What's, you know, what's kind of been working for you, what's been encouraging or energizing in your work lately? Something that's maybe gaining traction. 10:52 Sharlyn, Content Strong And on the flip side, you know, what are you seeing kind of deep resistance or frust in trying to move or change forward? 11:00 Catherine Wehlburg Well, one of the things that has been working really well for us is we are developing industry partnerships that are very intentional and very explicit. And these industry partnerships, we actually go to local and other industries and say, okay, what do you need? What is it that. Do you need more, you know, accountants? Do you need more hr? Do you need more people who understand AI and, you know, or analysis or, you know, whatever. What is it that you need? And then we try and match what they need with what we offer. And sometimes that means we have to go create something new. And we created a new contracts and acquisitions master's degree because there was a need for it in our area. And so we go in and we have direct, regular conversations with industry partners. 12:02 Catherine Wehlburg And we also offer them when they agree to be our. We call them learning partnerships. And when they are a Learning partner with us. We really want it to be a partnership. And so we want to provide them expertise that we have, but we also want to take advantage of expertise that they have. And that might mean guest lecturing, it might mean finding new adjuncts in different areas, it might mean asking them to sit on a board of visitors to be able to bring that perspective. And then we are able to offer their employees and their employees families a 10% tuition discount. And for those companies that have tuition reimbursement that can be great for the company and also for the employees student to be able to grow in their educational attainment, but also to do it at something that is a reasonable cost. 13:02 Catherine Wehlburg And at this point in time, we are the lowest cost per credit hour tuition in the state of Alabama for a four year degree. And we work really hard to keep that as low as possible because we know that our adult learners and our, and many of our transfer students are also adult learners, have families, they have jobs. They are not necessarily going to be able to be full time. They have other responsibilities that will, that are part of, you know, who they are and what they bring with them to education. I was a traditional student. After I graduated high school, I went straight into college. I lived on campus, I played in the marching band. 13:52 Catherine Wehlburg I, you know, I mean, I was, you know, so when I would walk into class and professors would say my class is your job, you know, and so this is what you are doing. Our faculty know that their class is certainly a high priority for students, but that they also have other jobs and they have family obligations and they have all of those other kinds of things. And so we really work to try and be as flexible as we can to help the student get what they need without any kind of decrease in rigor or knowledge gained in the course that they're taking. But to be able to provide the flexibility that adult learners need to have. 14:41 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. And I feel like that's even, that is part of your specific value proposition. Because coming in as a student, understanding that I can still get what I need from this, I can still gain the kind of high level education that I need that can take me places. But, but I'm still able to do all the things that I need to do over here, I think that's excellent. What hasn't been working for you or what's been more of a challenge? 15:07 Catherine Wehlburg Well, and I think one of the challenges that we have is as an institution that does not. So we offer a lot of our classes online or hybrid. So we don't have a lot of students taking classes on campus because many of our students are working so to have, you know, 10am Monday, Wednesday, Friday, class doesn't really fit in with that flexibility. And because of that, our students don't always have the same connection to our institution as they might if they were going to football games on Saturdays and you know, joining a fraternity or a sorority or you know, we do have student organizations, but it is a different type of connection that our students have to our institution and to their individual program. 16:01 Catherine Wehlburg And I think one of the challenges that we are facing is how do we engage better with students not just in the class. And that certainly is part of teaching and learning is that engagement piece of, but as an institution, how do we better engage with our students so that we aren't just merely providing them with, you know, options for classes, but we are, you know, they, we have a one, you know, career services opportunities, we have leadership opportunities, we have work study opportunities, we have, you know, how do we engage our students when they're not living on campus and taking classes always on campus. And so that certainly has been a challenge for us. 16:58 Catherine Wehlburg We are going to be bringing our students to campus in the fall for a convocation where they will come in on a Friday night and we'll have dinner and we'll have opportunities, informal and formal for them to, to meet each other, get to know each other in, you know, in real life and really start making connections with faculty and and being on campus to see that they are part of a, of a long history and that, you know, we're here for them and once they graduate, we're still here for them and we still have ways that we can support them in being successful in that. And so, but that certainly has been one of the challenges when we're working with online students and, and students who are adult learners and have, have transferred in. 17:57 Catherine Wehlburg So they've been at at least one other institution and some come in having been at many institutions. And we want to be, make sure that we are not just providing them with credit hours for their courses, but that we are truly helping to support them as a lifelong learner. 18:13 Sharlyn, Content Strong Is that new? Is that a new thing where you're come physically here, let us do this event for you and come experience what life is like with us for a little bit and create those in person connections. Is that a new thing? 18:26 Catherine Wehlburg That is, that is A more recent thing now certainly we go back, you know, 50 years. You know, were doing that as a, as a four year institution that was a private Methodist institution actually for a long time. But this is something that is new for us in this new chapter of Athens State. Yes. 18:46 Sharlyn, Content Strong Okay, very interesting. So I mean, you're clearly challenging some of the kind of sacred cows and higher ed, from credit hours to outdated delivery models. What structural or curricular changes, other changes have you tried or are exploring and what has been kind of the recent response to that? 19:06 Catherine Wehlburg Well, so we're looking, and this is not new, but it is not always done well. And part of that is looking at credit for prior learning. And so when students come in and they have not just transfer credits that they're bringing in with them, but they have work experience, they have industry credentials that they have gotten, why would we ask them to sit in a class and pay us money for something that they already know or at least partially already know? So we have tried to build up our credit for prior learning so that students are getting appropriate and accurate credit for what they, what they bring in with them. So we have created an office that we call also, which is adult learner services office. And you know, we recognize that our students are also parents and they're also employees. 20:02 Catherine Wehlburg And so this is an office where they can come in and they can say, hey, I've got this credential or I was in the military and I have this, or I have, you know, had these other experiences. And we've got a portfolio assessment process they can go through. We've got other kinds of ways to try and make that as accurate as possible to give them credit for that prior learning. So that's been a piece of that. We're also looking at finding ways to be more competency based so that, you know, it's not about seat time, it's about learning. And so if, you know, if you can, if you come in with some of that knowledge, we certainly want to give you credit for that. 20:52 Catherine Wehlburg But we also want to make sure that you're not, we're not having you just sit there to learn and take three exams and you know, 10 discussion boards and you know, that kind of thing. We want you to really learn and show us that you are learning. And so bringing in some of those forms of competency based education has been something we're doing. We've also working to try and add experiential learning to as many of our courses as we can because we know that increases in engagement in that learning. And so that has been our quality enhancement plan. And for those who are in the Southern association of Colleges and Schools, you know what a QEP is, but it is something that is required by our accreditor. 21:44 Catherine Wehlburg But we have really embraced this idea of experiential learning being a part of as many courses as it makes sense. And so that every student has the opportunity to do that kind of experiential learning. So they're really engrossed and engaged in that. And so we have on campus, we have a crime scene lab so that students in criminal justice actually can go through and learn some of the forensics and learn some of the. And we actually have a house on campus that has been turned into the crime scene where lab and it can be set up for various labs and that kind of thing. 22:24 Catherine Wehlburg We also have in our computer science area, you know, we have the ability for our students to go in and actually respond to real time cyber attacks and be able to work through that in some of the computer science and cyber programs. And so we're adding many of those in. And of course, some of our programs, as other places have that already built in. If you're going to take a fine arts program or a theater program, you're going to be doing that work because you're going to be acting in a play or you're going to be doing, you know, technical behind the scenes or you're going to be painting or what have you. 23:04 Catherine Wehlburg And so really taking that and applying that in as many ways as is appropriate across campus to try and engage students to so that what they're learning about is also what they're doing. 23:18 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. And of course that reflects directly to the value that they're getting because when they leave, they can say, I've done this thing, I've had this experience. I have done this physically, hands on, tangibly, and can bring that experience to, you know, wherever it is that they end up working. That's right, absolutely. So I think about some of the things that you mentioned that you've tried in terms of the shifts that you know, you're doing at your own institution. And I think about kind of what you're following and what you're tracking, certainly with, you know, adult learners and transfer students at the center. How are you kind of thinking about student success and institutional effectiveness? What kind of indicators, let's say, matter what kind of indicators matter to you most now and how are you kind of tracking your progress? 24:02 Catherine Wehlburg So we Are certainly looking at interest in our programs and that's kind of at that entry level. And so you know how many applications are coming in for different programs and if, if programs aren't having a lot of applications, then why. Is it because it's not meeting a need? Is it because we're not talking about it? Well, is it because it is not something that is an ongoing program that we need to continue to have? So, so that is something that is that we use as a metric to gauge interest in our, our programs. We're looking at some of the classic kinds of retention, but we do our own type of retention numbers because we don't have first time full time freshmen. And without first time full time freshmen, those at least in the United States are the, the that formula is created. 25:05 Catherine Wehlburg We aren't counted in any of those because of that. So we have created our own retention statistics that we use on a regular basis. We also certainly look at the enrollment behaviors of students. And one of the things we found, for example, is that our students as adult learners are more likely to take a summer class than, than not. And so our summer semester is actually a very robust semester because that's when our students have more capacity in some instances. And so that has changed kind of how we budget and how we staff our summertime. We've also are really looking right now very closely at what hours do our students need us. If we're open from 8 to 5 or ish, and a student is also working 8 to 5, how are they going to talk to the, you know, financial aid office? 26:13 Catherine Wehlburg How are they going to talk to the business office? How are they going to. And so, you know, they can't go to the library or you know, have those kinds of things when they're working. So we have been looking at making some changes to access both in person and open offices as well as an online presence for our students. One of the things that we put in place about, oh gosh, I guess it's been about four years now, was a student success coach model. So every student, when they come in, they not only have a faculty mentor, sometimes faculty mentors, but they also have a student success coach. 27:01 Catherine Wehlburg And that student success coach works with them on making sure they've got the courses they need, but also helping them get, you know, oh, this is something you need to talk more with financial aid about. Or we've got, you know, mental health support that, you know, we can offer you and making sure. That students are able to access the kinds of things that they may not even realize are available through Athens State. So that student success coach model has been incredibly successful and has really, you know, students will. 27:45 Catherine Wehlburg When we do kind of exit interviews and surveys of our graduating students, the student success coaches, because they're with the student over their time here, is sometimes mentioned as much as their faculty because that person has played such an important role in their success and in cheering for them and being supportive and really coaching for that. So that model has also really worked very well with, with our students. 28:19 Sharlyn, Content Strong I love to hear that. I like. And you can see directly how your metrics are kind of, you're tying the metrics indirectly to a student experience and a student journey overall. 28:29 Catherine Wehlburg Right. And then of course, we have learning outcomes in our program. So you know, we look to see in the individual programs are they learning what we hope they're learning? And, and in some programs we have been able to build in some industry credentials. And so we certainly track where those are appropriate. And not every program has those. But so for example, in graphic design, you know, we've embedded some of the Adobe credentialing into our courses so that students can sit for those outside of their program, but they are prepared for those. And so we certainly are also looking at those industry credentials metrics. 29:17 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right. Which makes a lot of sense, honestly, Catherine. Yeah, it does. I think about, you know, some of the things that you mentioned that you've kind of accomplished that you've changed in response to the shifts that we're having, the shifts that we're seeing across the sector. And I think about, you know, looking towards the next six to 12 months. What are kind of your key goals, whether, you know, personal, institutional, sector wide, and what would it mean to you and your team if you actually got to hit those marks and you got the big check marks. 29:46 Catherine Wehlburg Yes, well, and you know, and as we are looking at our strategic plan and how we can hit those, you know, define what that framework is. And the way we're doing strategic planning here is a little bit different in that we are doing a project based strategic plan. So we have developed a framework that has four areas of it. And within those four areas, and one of them is student success for transfer students and students. Another one is student success for our adult learners. Within each of the four areas we have projects that we're doing that will hopefully enhance the metrics in that particular category of the strategic plan. And then if it does. We'll keep it and we'll continue to do it. And then we'll develop another project to keep moving in that direction. 30:47 Catherine Wehlburg And if it doesn't work, we'll either figure out why didn't it work and can we try it again and tweak it, or it's just not a good idea. And let's not do that again and let's come up with another one. But having this framework allows us to be much more flexible and much more nimble at developing new things that will help us and support student success, innovative teaching and learning, community engagement, and those kinds of things that are in that framework for our strategic plan. 31:23 Sharlyn, Content Strong Okay, so that's what you'd say is the next kind of your bigger thinking, big goals is hitting those check marks on your honor strategic plan and getting to those four pillars that. 31:31 Catherine Wehlburg You mentioned and taking them to that next. Okay, so, okay, we hit this. So, for example, you know, as we look at our enrollment growth, you know, we want to see we're at around 3,000 students right now for our enrollment. And, you know, we'd like to grow that and in specific programs as well. So, you know, we're looking at that. So we've got things in place to help support that. And so as we hit those, those marks, let's raise the bar so that we're continuously looking at how do we continue to improve, not just grow, but, but improve. And what does that look like? What does innovative teaching and learning look like? And, you know, once we do these kinds of things. Well, okay, so what's that next? You know, what do we still want to do with that? 32:31 Catherine Wehlburg And that will help to keep our view focused on our mission and our students and on what they're doing, but by being very intentional about the projects that we are doing within the structure of the framework of the strategic plan. 32:54 Sharlyn, Content Strong So generally, overall institutional growth in these specific areas, identifying where there are, I don't want to use the word gaps, but where there are opportunities to grow further or to continue to improve and move beyond kind of where you are. I love that. 33:08 Catherine Wehlburg Absolutely. And then looking at our community and seeing what is needed and where that growth is happening, and we're certainly seeing increasing needs in areas like, like cyber, like law enforcement, like, you know, in management areas. And that brings with it other areas that need growth. We need more teachers, we need more nurses. We need all of those Kinds of things. And so we're able to take our academic programs and link them to those workforce needs, those advanced workforce needs. And so we really are a partner in our community. We don't just exist within our community. We are. And we want to be even more right kind of this. 34:06 Sharlyn, Content Strong Directly tied and linked. 34:07 Catherine Wehlburg Directly tied, exactly. So that, you know, we want our community when they're looking at, you know, growth and you know, we've got a new, for example, we've got industry coming in all the time. Huntsville, Alabama is bringing in more FBI agents, for example. Okay, so what does that mean? What do we need to do? How can we help support the work that they're doing? Not necessarily in training the FBI agents. They're coming in already trained and hired and all that kind of thing. But what else is needed to help support, you know, their field staff? They're going to bring their families with them. They're going to, we're going to need more of, you know, all of those things. So really looking at how we can continue to help support that. And it's not just in some of these STEM areas. 35:03 Catherine Wehlburg We have a growing music industry program where we are an hour and a half from Nashville. We've got Muscle Shoals practically in our backyard. We've got, you know, so that music industry piece is also very important and, and adds to our community. And so we have, you know, when our community can come in and see a great show or you know, hear fabulous music or, or what have you, that also strengthens community and again helps to invest back into our area which helps to feed it, feed our growth and our success. And it, you know, it really works both, both ways and is I think part of the exciting piece as we kind of blend town and gown together. 36:00 Sharlyn, Content Strong I love to hear that. I love what you've really done is illustrated a really interesting ecosystem model here where you have, your strategy and program development is directly tied to the needs of the, on the ground in the community and how it's uplifting the growth of the entire community. And that once again really speaks to, I mean, what we talked about at the beginning is really demonstrating that value of what higher education is bringing. And you could see the direct line between what, how higher ed, in this case your institution is directly benefiting the community that surrounds it. So I think that's a very interesting view of it. 36:31 Sharlyn, Content Strong And my last question for you and my last question for just about everybody is always, you Know, this magic wand question, you know, if I give you a magic wand right now, I give you the keys to the kingdom and you can wave that magic wand and you can remove that one, you know, systemic barrier, that one barrier to your progress, political, structural, cultural, whatever it is, what would you fix first? And what, you know, what do you think that possible, that amazing final result will be? 36:57 Catherine Wehlburg Well, you know, and I think a lot of it comes down to financial support for students. If I could wave a magic wand and say, you know what, we have full ride scholarships for every student who wants to come in here and learn so that, that, you know, students can come in and that financial cost is not a barrier to them, you know, what would that, what would that look like? You know, so that, that anyone who wanted, you know, there wouldn't be that concern about taking on student debt. And I know that, that has just been such a huge conversation, and rightly so, about that expense. You know, what if we could find a way to fund that, you know, would that be, you know, to me, that would be magical. 37:48 Catherine Wehlburg To me that would, if we could keep the same level of service and yet not have, you know, any direct outlay from students, themselves or their families, you know, what would that look like? Would that open up the door for more students? And I think the answer to that is clearly yes with that. So where would that funding come from? And I know you didn't really ask this question, but, you know, but you. 38:15 Sharlyn, Content Strong Asked it before I did, so go ahead. Yeah. 38:17 Catherine Wehlburg How are, how are we trying to really grow and build in this? I don't think it's going to come from the state. I think our state has been incredibly supportive of higher education and we are very fortunate to be in a state of that provides the level of financial support that we get. But I don't think there's going to be more money going into that. I don't think it's going to come from the, the federal government. We're already seeing some potential decreases in Pell dollars and in some of the ways that students are funding that, you know, we are as about as efficient as we can be. Mostly. There's some, probably more, some things that we can do, but we are a very efficient entity. You know, so cutting the cost down is not really going to make much of a difference. 39:08 Catherine Wehlburg So how do we make sure that education is truly a public good and that people are willing to support that in the ways that they need to support that. And again, I think this goes back to your first question of, you know, what, how does higher ed need to change? And I think we need to make it so that it is truly something that is invested in by individuals, by foundations, by federal and local governments, but that we are looking at this as something that benefits not just the students who graduate, but it benefits our communities. And that community is large. And that we are stronger when we have. Have a better educated citizenry. And so that's something that I would love to see us move even more toward, is providing that support for students. 40:09 Catherine Wehlburg So that financial need is not a barrier to education. 40:16 Sharlyn, Content Strong Certainly, I see you've already taken footsteps in that direction. This idea of creating those partnerships with industry, with people, you know, the businesses and the organizations that are working in, you know, your communities and being able to make those partnerships with them and leverage. Look, this is how we're bringing to the table. How can you support us and support our students? Because in the end, it supports you. Right. Is there anything else that comes to mind that you were, you know, hoping to share with me or to share with us and we. I didn't ask you about it. 40:45 Catherine Wehlburg You know, and in the next three hours, what I'd like to do is talk more. No, I. There is so much that is going on. You know, I work very closely with our accreditors and the accrediting system in the United States so that we can make sure that education is something that is of quality, that it's not about getting a piece of paper that has your, you know, your diploma printed on it. It is about being able to better perform in your daily life, in your job, in your, you know, thinking and planning and all of those kinds of things. And so I do think that as we look at higher education and how just the whole ecosystem is changing, making sure that we maintain some level of quality assurance is crucial and so important to what we're doing. 41:39 Catherine Wehlburg And of course, then you try and get in to find what does quality look like? Because it's not kind of. We can't take a cookie cutter approach and say, well, it has to be this test score or it has to be, you know, look like this. But we've got to be always talking about quality and making sure that we are, that, that we are helping support students. And we can't do that if we're not offering something that is, that's not quality. And, and so accreditation and the way we accredit and the, the time frame and the costs of accreditation are all things that I think are. That we are going to have to grapple with as we, as we move forward if we're going to really see higher ed grow into what it can become. 42:32 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right? That's an excellent point, Katherine. I mean, thank you. I've taken so much. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your experience and your perspective. I've taken so much already from this very generous conversation to our listeners. To anyone who watches this, I hope this episode sparked some ideas, affirmed. You know, some of your own experiences helped you maybe see a challenge in a different light. If you're a communications marketing leader or leader in higher ed and you want to contribute to this evolving conversation, we'd love to hear from you. Because a trust truth is these conversations are not just talk. They're really the start of a kind of a shared road map for the future of our field. So let's get to work. Thank you so much again, Katherine. 43:13 Catherine Wehlburg Thank you so much. This has been wonderful. I appreciate it.