Hello and welcome to Higher Thinking on Higher Ed. I'm Charlyn Carrington, communication steward and strategist. Super excited to continue diving into kind of the biggest trends, common challenges, the most effective solutions encountered by communications and marketing leaders in higher ed. And I am super honored. Thank you, thank you. To talk today to Ali Bagot. Ali is the director of marketing and communications at St. Michael's University School in Victoria, BC, where she leads a team focused on strategic positioning for this institution. And prior to smus, she spent over a decade in communications at the University of Victoria and has supported global sporting events like the Olympics and the Pan Am Games. Ali brings a really unique and dynamic perspective, I think, to leadership in higher ed and institutional, frankly, marketing and communications. So huge. Thank you once again, Ali. 01:26 Sharlyn, Content Strong I know it's super early for you in the morning. How are you doing? 01:30 Ali Baggott (sheher) I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me. And thanks for having a podcast that's about topics that are near and dear to my heart. 01:38 Sharlyn, Content Strong Mine too. It's really interesting to see how much interest this has kind of garnered. So I'll just start really light and just ask you super. Simply tell me a little bit about your role and how it fits into kind of the bigger picture at St. 01:51 Ali Baggott (sheher) Michael's yeah, so my current role is at St. Michael's University School, which is a junior kindergarten to grade 12 school. And we also have boarding for grade nine to 12. And I only hopped over to this sector about a year ago after working at a post secondary institution in my hometown, Victoria. And there's a lot of similarities. You know, we all have sort of the same fight to fight, and we're in the war of content creation and battling, you know, controlling our own narrative in a space and age where everybody can be a marketer just using their smartphone. So it's certainly a challenging role. But all of my previous experience has sort of armed me for it. 02:38 Ali Baggott (sheher) And I think, you know, dealing in this sector now is a little bit different because I'm dealing with mostly minors as opposed to in university where I'm dealing with adults. But it's the same game, it's the same struggles and the same way to get your wins. So it's been really fulfilling. 02:54 Sharlyn, Content Strong I love what you said there about everyone can be a marketer. And that really brings me to my next question, which is about really kind of what shifts you're seeing in the sector in the industry related to marketing communications for institutions and how are those kind of shaping, you know, your strategy, your priorities for your growth for your school? Frankly. 03:14 Ali Baggott (sheher) Yeah, I think, you know, having started in this field in 2011, not with any formal education or training, but just learning on the go, I've been fortunate enough to see this field evolve so quickly, you know, over the last 10, 15 years. And I think that's sort of what sets good marketing and communications people apart from each other, is that flexibility to roll with how things are changing and how sort of the environment and the landscape kind of ebbs and flows with what's going on in the world. Previously you could really just focus on the microcosm of your own audience, your own network, those that are already kind of connected with you and in that space. Space. But now more and more what's happening anywhere in the corner of the world is affecting every single person in marketing and communications. 04:03 Ali Baggott (sheher) And so I think being nimble and agile and trying as much as you want to try and plan and get ahead, you also have to embrace the now and realize you could have planned your content calendar for weeks on end and then something happens on the other side of the world and everybody's shook by it and you just look kind of crazy if you're going out with your campaign content that you have set out four weeks ago. And so I think watching it evolve, both in the conversations, the environment and the narrative, and also sort of on the technology side in features, new apps and how people are using those in their day to day life means that businesses and institutions, education, institutions, are constantly trying to keep up, but also trying to get ahead. 04:46 Ali Baggott (sheher) And so I think finding the comfort in knowing that you're never going to know everything and you can't predict everything, and having a little space for being responsive in the moment and reactive, I think that's where I've sort of found some comfort level and I think that's where I've been able to find success, is I can drop what I'm doing, come back to it later, or pivot and take advantage of something that's happening in the moment because that's what people are really looking for now is instantaneous, over strategic and planned. 05:15 Sharlyn, Content Strong So yeah, so I think that's, I mean, you've said a lot there. I think it's really interesting and I want to pick up on it a little bit. In terms of industry shifts, the big things I've kind of pulled from even what you said, you're seeing these, one, the instantaneous, the need for instant access and instant information. And two, this idea that, you know, our ability to strategize, kind of do this kind of long term planning as we once did it has really kind of changed because, you know, something happening over here could really impact, you know, what we had previously planned to do. Is that kind of what you're seeing, industry shifts? 05:51 Ali Baggott (sheher) Yeah, definitely. And I think because everybody has a smartphone in their pocket nowadays, you know, it's really changed how people are consuming media and so it's really hard to get in front of them when there's. The volume of content in itself has just increased in the world, both digitally and in physical spaces. You're starting to see how people are utilizing, you know, activations in person to create more content and compete with that. So I think like, you know, we just have to be conscious that the strategy has to have room for some real time decisions. And I think that those that can sort of be okay with that, they're finding their way a little quicker than, you know, than those who are so set in doing what's planned. Because often you'll miss the boat really quickly on an opportunity that could resonate with this. 06:44 Ali Baggott (sheher) And you're now, you're seeing this more and more with massive brands who you would think are very strategic about their campaigns and their narrative and their storytelling and their media relations. You're seeing them quickly pivot so that they can take advantage of something that's happening on the other side of the world that ties into their values or their core, you know, their core ethos, so to speak. And so they can pivot. And I think that's sort of where the world has shifted because if you don't do it, somebody else is going to do it quicker and then you just look like a follower. So you have to find that realm of what is performative, what is actually going to stay true to what your brand and tone is and that you can jump on and. 07:25 Ali Baggott (sheher) Yeah, and just be ready to pivot and it could flop. But I think taking risks is necessary in this day and age. 07:32 Sharlyn, Content Strong I heard you said a lot there that was really great. I mean, there are two things I want to pick up on. And the first thing is this idea that, you know, it's hard to get in front of people because of the amount of constant information coming at them. And when, you know, in this industry, when we think people, I'm likely thinking, you mean students, obviously that you want to attract to come their parents obviously that need to be involved in that decision making as well as like, you know, faculty members and so on, that any kind of big institution is trying to attract to them. What is, like, what do you think about that? Is it, is that right to say that this idea that it's hard to get in front of them and how are you kind of circumventing that challenge? 08:10 Ali Baggott (sheher) Yeah, so. So one side of the coin is obviously the more money you put down, the more you can get in front of a targeted audience. But I think, yeah, you have to think about how each audience demographic is utilizing their devices and where their eyes are going. And I think now you'll see sort of something that's trending or something that's more relevant would land better than something that is really polished and really, you know, thought out. Because quality has sort of gone out the window in replacement of something that's relevant, something that's funny, something that's, you know, quick to come out. 08:58 Ali Baggott (sheher) And so that's where I think professionals who work in this space, you know, they go to school for graphic design, they become professional video editors, they have cameras that shoot in 4K, they're using Adobe software to design things, while somebody who actually maybe goes to the school makes like a homemade video on their phone and that goes totally viral because it's authentic. And so this strive to find authenticity in your marketing is sort of the ultimate goal now is how can my content look like it fits in with the day to day scroll? But it's actually got all the points that we're trying to hammer home about our school. So I think that's kind of interesting to see how that shifts and how you compete with the day to day scroll. 09:43 Sharlyn, Content Strong That's really, that's another really good point. I got a good sound bite there as well. Like this idea of, you know, quality is less important than being authentic and reacting in real time so that it actually kind of reaches your audience. I mean, if I think about, if you think about rather all the kind of things you're doing, all the strategic things that you are doing, and this idea that, you know, you have this institution in some cases, some institutions, and you could speak to that this in a second. Some institutions are almost bogged down by the fact that they are part of a bigger team and they're not able to kind of be as nimble and in the moment as they would like to be. 10:22 Sharlyn, Content Strong I don't know if you have any thoughts on that piece and just really thinking about overall in terms of your strategy, what's working well for you guys and what's. And what's not working well for you guys. 10:31 Ali Baggott (sheher) Yeah. So I think that to be effective in marketing communications in this day and age, and especially when you're trying to talk to university age students who are very like phone first, I think you really have to be a consumer of the space that you are trying to market to. And so I think that's a big hurdle for a lot of people is if the marketing and communications team or those doing that work don't have the autonomy or the support or the confidence to be able to act and deliver and need layers of approval. 11:03 Ali Baggott (sheher) Like if they can consume that media and understand how people are in that space and what's going on in there on a day to day, then those people are the best people positioned to determine whether the way you write it, the what you're showing and how you show it and when they are the best people to get that out to the world. But when you have leaders or other folks that are weighing in saying oh, I don't know, and that time to deliberate about whether or not it's going to be impactful based on their personal experience, which is often not a regular consumer of this environment or in a different way because their algorithm would look very different, then I, you'll see a breakdown. 11:44 Ali Baggott (sheher) And so what I'm really grateful for is that both at the University of Victoria and in my current role, you know, I've built those relationships with the people who don't work in my space, but are industry leaders in the sectors that they are, whether they're academic leaders or their faculty or alumni or parents that you really trust that, you know, I'm, I am literally taking the brand account and scrolling through the home feed every day, every night, different times of day, much like a consumer would. So I think, yeah, I think that's where, when it works it's because there's complete trust and faith in our team to deliver. And I always say people come to me asking me like, can you make this video, can you post this photo? Can you do this? 12:27 Ali Baggott (sheher) And they're jumping to the tactic and I'm, I go back to them and I'm like, what is the problem you're trying to solve? And then let me deliver on the tactic, you tell me the narrative, you tell me what you're trying to do or get them to do, and then I'll come to the table with the tactics because I'm consuming those possibilities so that I can then utilize that to go out and compete. So I think that's where we've had some serious wins, is where we can just make the decision on how best to do that. And not having a one piece of content or one strategy that fits. It's all, you know, alumni are going to consume it in a different way on a different platform than Gen Z, than Millennials. 13:08 Ali Baggott (sheher) And the more you can stretch and flex your content to meet people where they're at, the much more impactful it will be. 13:15 Sharlyn, Content Strong That's, I mean, that's excellent. I mean, I've heard this a lot when, in having these conversations, this idea that, you know, for some people it's been a struggle to build that trust, build that really showcase the value of a role in marketing communication so that other leaders can understand what you're doing, how you're doing and what you actually bring to the institution. So I think that's a great win for you. It sounds like what's a big hurdle for you guys right now? 13:45 Ali Baggott (sheher) I think a big hurdle is just trying to keep up with the pace. I mean, I feel like as a person that's quite creative in this space, I could turn anything into marketing content, but I can't be everywhere and I can't give everybody 100% of my attention. So I think trying to make one role or even a small team do all of it is really hard. So that's where the strategy piece comes in, is having priorities about what types of events and content and which types of students and which parts of their stories actually align with the overall brand and message that we're trying to send out. 14:21 Ali Baggott (sheher) Because when a teacher or an educator or somebody doing something in your school says, hey, come to this, it's often, you know, not intentional, but it's often sort of self serving, like I'm doing something really cool, I want publicity. And so the layer that is a bit of a burden is that education and building that trust in the relationship that we still need to be able to make decisions about which of those things are going to help us achieve our higher level goals. And I think that's a huge hurdle is because you want to show up for people when they take time to say, hey we're cool thing or hey, my student achieved this. And I think a big hurdle is educating folks around us that there is still a bigger goal. 15:01 Ali Baggott (sheher) Even if it just looks like we come in, take a couple video clips and make a quick reel, it's not quite that bare. There is a higher level thinking to it. And so I think having people understand our world is probably one of the hugest barriers. And then I think for many schools, because we're not like consumer brands or you know, selling anything, often they have one person doing social media who's also probably writing and updating the website and taking photos and editing videos. And so putting that skill set one person is very challenging. And I've been in that world, I've been a one person shop and I then I've been in larger places where we had a graphic design team, a whole video team, and then now I have a smaller team, each with specialties. 15:48 Ali Baggott (sheher) So I think finding your way through who you have, the skill set they have and just that understanding from outside of your department is probably one of the biggest hurdles I faced year after year in different ways. 16:01 Sharlyn, Content Strong I want to ask you about metrics in just a second, but I just want like once again, something you just said, this idea of, you know, having a smaller team but being able to still kind of achieve some of the higher thinking, bigger picture goals that you have. What technologies and stuff are you really leaning into now or you would like to lean into? Maybe you haven't done it yet. To really help you guys kind of propel you into that next level. 16:26 Ali Baggott (sheher) Yeah. So similar to your earlier questions about things evolving and trending and changing, that tools and platforms and software are also part of that. So, you know, I think we utilize, you know, DSLR cameras for high quality photography. And we use, you know, in our school environment there's like Canva Pro, we have somebody who actually is a graphic designer. But more often than not because we're striving for that authenticity and we're trying to look like we are one of our consumers. We're just using our phone. We have, you know, you want to just use a smartphone that has, there's. They're so powerful in this day and age. So I think we always have that with us. 17:04 Ali Baggott (sheher) But then leveling up your game with, for example, we use DJI mics which can pop into our phones, just give that audio quality a Little bit more of a pop, but now you're seeing sort of trends that flip flop. So you're seeing, for example, we sent disposable cameras out with our students and you're seeing that like sort of vintage raw type of thing. You're seeing, you know, there was a big boom of Polaroids coming back five or six years ago. You're seeing sort of the film cameras come back and then they digitize them and show the photos with like the timestamp on it or the date stamp. So you're seeing like retro ways of photography and film coming back into new age styles of content creation. And that's just because people are trying to find new ways to be more authentic. 17:47 Ali Baggott (sheher) If you took a photo with a film camera, it's likely that, you know, it's really raw. It's got that raw feeling. You were there. There's no digital zoom, you know. So I think, you know, you have to use those types of tools in the moment when they're trending. But ultimately, you know, we're still doing what we've always done and what I've always done for 10 years, which is editing on the computer for photos and video using a DSLR camera. The phone has been definitely been a game changer because you can get more content from other people and then repackage it in a way that works for you. So that's been really helpful in terms of decentralizing content creation. But yeah, I think nothing crazy fancy. 18:25 Ali Baggott (sheher) I think things like hootsuite and Sprout Social have sort of changed the game in terms of scheduling content, doing social listening and pulling analytics. Those are really valuable tools as well. They're not mandatory, but it helps when you have multiple people working on your channels to bring it all together in. 18:41 Sharlyn, Content Strong One place and everyone can understand exactly where you're going and how you're getting there. It really helps streamline the strategy and the productivity, I think. And as you were talking about that, I was thinking about like just as picking up on this idea of authenticity. Right. And, and what people, how institutions are using AI now and how that impacts their ability to be on authentic. I don't know if you guys are using AI at all or what that means for you. 19:04 Ali Baggott (sheher) Yeah, I mean AI is a tool and like any tool, it sort of depends on the person using the tool. And so you'll see writing that is clearly done by chat GPT. You'll see those like very typical cartoony type graphics. I mean there was a trend going around of people doing their AI self in like a toy box. And like, I think, like, you should use it's a tool, but don't lose yourself in the work that you're doing. I mean, we use AI in Photoshop all the time to like, fill out a photo or remove something, us, some ideas, I think. But for the most part, I still try to use my own hands, my own brain and my own way of doing things. 19:48 Ali Baggott (sheher) And then I use AI for ideas, for, you know, concepts to bring to life very quickly so that I don't spend so much time on it, to give me another way of thinking things or maybe to like, you know, spell check or something like that. But yeah, I'm not afraid of it. I love it. I think it's a powerful tool. I think we just have to see how people are using it and be ready for, you know, competing with content that does have it. So even if you're choosing not to do it, lots of people are. So you have to find how your stuff will fit in the world with that. 20:21 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right, right. I think that's, I think that's really true. I think it is a tool and I think there are a lot. There are many tools and there are many different ways to use them and really leverage them to our advantage in ways that are potentially more cost effective, let's say. And, and we really have this ability to be a little bit more strategic with how we use them and what they need mean. I want to ask you about metrics because I don't want the time to go, but are there anything you guys are really kind of paying close attention to these days in terms of, like, what are you tracking? What are the outputs look like? What, what does an outcome look like? The difference between outcome and output. Right. 20:54 Ali Baggott (sheher) Yeah. So analytics, again, are. You can get so much data from all of your content and all of the campaigns and the paid ads you run and your website traffic. But again, the data is only as good as the context of all. So, you know, if you're only getting 6,000 views, that can seem like not very much. But if on average you're actually getting, you know, 2,000 views and one post gets 6,000, well, that's actually really positive for you because you might just have a smaller community than somebody who's getting hundreds and thousands of views. So again, those numbers have to be delivered in and reported out in a way that has the context relevant to the landscape of your platforms and channels. And so of course, if something has, you know, hundreds of millions of views. 21:42 Ali Baggott (sheher) That's, that's an obvious one, but it's finding those little relevant pieces within that are really important. So for us, for example, when we get content that goes a little bit more viral, so say we have a video that's well over 10 or 20,000 views, I'm really happy about that. But then the next layer is to go in and see who is watching that and say if 40% of the people that watched it were followers and the rest were non followers. Well, that is super important to me because when we're recruiting students, we're not trying to find people who are already following us. We're trying to find the, the bubble that's outside of the people that are following us. 22:20 Ali Baggott (sheher) So it's likely that people within our community share content to their own personal platforms or channels and then that exposes us to their layer of friends, people that we can't access. So I think, so I think that's where it's really powerful is understanding what you're trying to go after and what your goals are and then taking the metrics and seeing that when it comes to like website TR, sure it's great to have like 3 million views, but where are they going after that? How are they far, Are they scrolling? Are they taking action? If your goal is to get them to apply, but they never click on apply, then how relevant is 3 million views? Right. 22:56 Ali Baggott (sheher) So again, that context is super important in terms of social, obviously engagement views, watch, time sharing, all of that sort of engagement is really important because naturally most people are trying to get more eyeballs on their, on their stuff because it takes so many views to get an action. And then in PA we're just looking to see conversions, but then you want to have that whole user experience tracked. So you know, you look at views on a paid ad, then you look at click rate, then wherever they went, you have a UTM on that page to make sure that you can see where, how they got there, what devices they came from, when they came, where in the world they came. 23:35 Ali Baggott (sheher) Like if you're posting between 8 and 5 in your workday for me in British Columbia, that's not the right time that people are necessarily online on the other side of the world, where I'm trying to recruit international boarding students so that data is so valuable if you can align it with what you're trying to do. You just want to kind of get out of the space of just trying to report out on performative metrics that don't align with what you're trying to do. It makes you look good if you have lots of content with lots of views, but if it's people that you're not needing to get views from, then how valuable is that? Right. So yeah. 24:08 Sharlyn, Content Strong Are you finding that, are you finding that challenging though? Like you're doing a lot in the content development space. Space, which is which you know, us as communicators, we know how valuable that could be and we know how much that actually could be like a turn into kind of a tangible result. I think about things like, you know, connecting some of those metrics back to some of your bigger, loftier goals like retention, like you know, reputation building, like, you know, connecting it, actually connecting it to sales, like attracting students and getting them to do take that next steps to apply. Are you finding that difficult to kind of tell that story or connect those, some of those concepts to actual outcomes? 24:47 Ali Baggott (sheher) Yes, absolutely. I think, you know, we're a pretty robust team for sort of a secondary school I would say we're probably one of the bigger teams of our industry and most post secondary institutions have a lot larger teams. So it's really like bringing that work together. So if you have a website person, a social media person and like a media relations person, it's making sure first that you set up the able to track that journey. And if you don't have the system then it's really hard. You're grasping at straws like oh, we got 500 clicks here and our views are 300. So one could possibly think, you know, but who knows, maybe some parent blasted out the link to that page to their friends and that's where the traffic's coming from. 25:29 Ali Baggott (sheher) So in order to be really sure you need to set up the system to be done in a way that uniquely tracks user experience. But I think it is really hard. I think a lot of us that work in this space are doing a lot of the top of funnel marketing. So we're just asking for eyeballs. Asking for eyeballs. And then certainly at our school the admissions team does a lot of hand holding to close the deal and we can't always make a correlation there. All we can do is try and go high volume for potential folks to come in. And then certainly in our world there's lots of anecdotal conversations about how people found out. Often people don't even know that they've seen your content, which isn't a bad thing. 26:07 Ali Baggott (sheher) But also it's hard to think then quantify how impactful the work you're doing is really. Because, you know, we hear people like, oh, that video was so great. But like that doesn't necessarily translate to what we need hard numbers for, which is enrollment. So yeah, it's very challenging. People always look at marketing when the numbers are low for admissions and sometimes we're doing all the work to get the eyeballs there and then the follow through is actually the. Where the problem is. So. 26:37 Sharlyn, Content Strong Yeah, yeah, it's tough. It, it can be tough to tell that story and because, you know, it's not like a product. We know this is not a product based industry. It is a much bigger picture. It takes a lot of touch points typically to get them to that final place. And then it takes more consistent touch points to keep them engaged with you as they're there, as they're being retained. 26:58 Ali Baggott (sheher) Yeah. And you're selling an experience, right. You're not selling a one off transaction. And every single student has a different experience. So how you capture the VAR possibilities, all different types are going to resonate differently with different people. If you go out with sports and there's people that are like, I don't dig sports, they're not gonna see your school in a way that's for them. So that's the tricky part is trying to find something that would connect with different folks. And so that's kind of experience. Yeah, absolutely. 27:29 Sharlyn, Content Strong That experience and that outreach to them. Okay, well, so where do you see yourself in the next. And by yourself, I mean your team and your institution and kind of your role in the next six to 12 months, where do you really hope that you guys could go? 27:43 Ali Baggott (sheher) Yeah, so I think in my field, I think we're just trying to lead the way in the content that we're doing to showcase our school in a relevant way. And I mean, for us, we are a private school. So often when you see private schools and boarding schools, you see, you know, uniforms, kilts, ties and blazers. And so while, yes, the students have that, what sets us apart from the many other private schools here, and I had the same challenge at UVic is like we can only rely on the west coast island life and weather so much. We have to also look at the actual unique experiences and then that comes into like our offerings, the quality of our faculty, the environment for learning, the extras that come in. 28:30 Ali Baggott (sheher) And so I think we need to do a better job telling those extras and then Also how we combat perception and reputation and stigmas and those sort of like longer term, ingrained, innate, assumed reputations and biases that people have of private schools, especially folks here, when we're competing for day students in the city or in the province, there are just long histories of assumptions. And the reality is that schools evolve. And so how do we say we've evolved or we're different and we're not the school were in the 50s. And that's okay. We still have tribute to our history, but this is who we are now and this is the possibility for your child today or tomorrow. Right. 29:18 Sharlyn, Content Strong So, yeah, that's really interesting and I feel like it touches on my last question, but it may not be the answer to my last question. So, you know, this idea of combating some of the ingrained historical reputation of the industry trying to build, or of. Sorry. Of your school trying to build something new that people would more resonate with now, would you say that's your biggest challenge? And the question I'd ask here really is if I were to hand you a magic wand. You've heard this question a million times, I'm sure. The magic wand question. If I gave you that magic wand and you were here and you could instantly wave it and fix kind of one major communications marketing leadership challenge, no red tape, no budget barriers, you know, what would you use it on? 29:58 Sharlyn, Content Strong Would it be that or would it be something else? 30:00 Ali Baggott (sheher) Oh my gosh. I. That is such a wild question. You know, I think. I don't know what the actual magic wand would actually go towards, but I think to kind of elaborate a little bit more on the last question is that the folks who know best are the people that are experiencing it now and having their buy in is the ultimate goal. If you're going out and saying the experience is X, Y and Z and the people living it are like, that is not the experience it, then you're doing yourself a disservice if you're selling something that's not the reality. I think that's really challenging. So if I had a magic wand, I would probably want the students and our work to be more closely aligned. 30:48 Ali Baggott (sheher) And we do see this, you know, and this is the age of exactly that influencer marketing, but organic influencer marketing. So I'm not asking them to tell me a catered story, I'm asking them to tell me their story. And they were putting up their hand and saying, hey, I'm going on a ski trip to Whistler and I want to show my story, I think that would be like, that would just. I don't know if it would solve things, but definitely make my life a lot easier than trying to hear about it in the wind and then trying to like make it visually fit all the boxes of how to compete. But actually just being like having people who are so happy and proud to be here. 31:22 Ali Baggott (sheher) And I think that's the hardest part for us is that I don't actually control what the experience looks like. We are only as good as the people who work here and deliver that. But as a marketer, I have to put a bow on it. And so my biggest fear is often that I, I'm making something sound like what it could be, but not necessarily what it is. And I'm at the mercy of the people delivering those programs. So having that alignment of what actually happens, who's actually experiencing it, and then them working proactively with us to be able to make it look good is sort of the triangle that probably isn't as tight as it could be, or as everyone probably in my field dreams it would be. 32:01 Sharlyn, Content Strong Right? That's such a good answer, Ali. I think that's a great answer. That's a great answer. Is there anything else that comes to mind that, you know, as were talking you were like, I should have talked about this or I wanted to share this thing. 32:13 Ali Baggott (sheher) I think the one emerging trend as you look at, you know, for my sector, it's looking at sort of middle school, high school age students and proposed secondary, the sort of coming out of high school age. The one thing that has really changed is that as much as everybody is online and scrolling for hours and hours on end, there's a higher demand for privacy. And I think that is a really tough barrier because one of the most valuable forms of communication is one to one communication. So if I put something out on our Instagram and somebody shares it to their story, that's great. But if, for example, I saw something and I shared it in a direct message with you personally, that is such a valuable interaction that one, you can't really quantify, two, you have no control over. 33:03 Ali Baggott (sheher) And so I think just thinking about how folks in this age are sharing less and less content on their social platforms because of privacy, because of, you know, their children, they're not putting their children up and they're either giving you the glimpse that they want you to have, which is very tailored and smiley and perfect. I think that's a real. Yeah, that's a real challenge now is that there's a whole conversation Happening in direct messages, in group chats, in Snapchat, in these other areas of platforms that are not public, that you cannot control. And you want to get in there, but you can't unless you're part of it. So you just have to trust that what you're doing is making it into those one one actions or those, those private messages. 33:47 Ali Baggott (sheher) Because Instagram's algorithm rates direct messages as the most powerful marketing way of marketing. But, and this is why you're seeing people do cold messages in LinkedIn and stuff like that is because one to one messaging is an expectation. Now with people, when they go onto a website, they don't want to spend time looking for anything. They want the 247 chatbot to find me what I want now. And so how on earth are we going to combat that? How are we going to get into that space? I think that is something that's emerging and when you can't see the space that you're trying to market to, that's very nerve wracking. So yeah, I think that's something cool to think about. 34:28 Sharlyn, Content Strong That is very cool to think about. And I'm so happy you brought that up. And I, I feel like we could talk about this for another three hours, quite frankly. Because like that's the, that's the thing that I think every single person that I am speaking to speaks to that exact piece. Right. Because that's the big thing happening now. What does that mean for our jobs? What does that mean for our strategies? What does that mean for the way we do things? And what does that mean for how we talk to each other? Right. How do, what does that mean for how we get into people's. In front of people, which is a big deal. We want to get in front of them. I, you know, thank you. I ha. 35:01 Sharlyn, Content Strong Thank you so much for having this discussion with me and taking this time and you know, getting up early and all the things. It's been amazing. I think I've already gleaned a lot of insights from it. I'm sure other people will get wonderful things from it as well. So once again, your time, your experience, your perspective was so wonderful. Thanks for sharing with us today. To everyone who listens to any of these episodes, I hope this episode sparked ideas, affirmed your own experiences, helped you kind of see a challenge in a new light. Maybe if you're a communications and marketing leader in higher ed and you want to contribute to this conversation, let's do it. We want to hear from you. The truth is these conversations aren't just talk. Right. 35:40 Sharlyn, Content Strong They're really the start of kind of a shared roadmap for the future of our field. So let's get to work, all of us. Thank you.